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  • When we're not off-the-reservation crazy about what we are asking, we get plenty out of it. The UN was successfully used by Bush 41 to build the case for going to war against Iraq when Saddam invaded Kuwait. That was a great example. So was the creation of Irsrael itself, the big defining moment of the fledgling UN. Israel has been both a justification for the UN's existence and a challenge to its ongoing sustainability. It's the most visible element of a body that has so much more going on, and not all of it useful.

    In truth, USAID, OPIC, the Millenium Challenge Corp. and other US government aid dispensaries are better and more direct ways to simultaneously ensure the loyalty of client states as well as open up investment avenues in those states for US corporations. But the knee-jerk opposition to any sort of foreign aid, regardless of the cost-benefit analysis, makes it hard.

    But the UN is the global body for deliberation. It just is. When a body like that is created, it is done according to the wishes of the great powers at the time of creation. So the UN reflects the balance of power in the post-WWII environment. If we were to defund the UN, that would be tantamount to reopening the discussion to what shape that global deliverative body would take. The US would still have a plenty loud voice in that discussion, but it sure as shit wouldn't be as loud at is was in 1945. Arguably, because China still understands the concept of spending abroad to increase power on a global scale, any UN replacement would look more like China wants it to look and less like the US wants it to look.

    So, bottom line, whatever your thoughts and feelings about the UN, there are important practical considerations before taking any sort of principled stand against a perceived injustice created by it.

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    • Which is all kind of nonsense anyways. So did Corker actually amass $69m in a decade as a US Senator, thanks to be responsible for 93.5% of all stock trades by finance committee members? There might be some holes in that story, but corruption in Washington is real and important. The toothless UNGA resolution du jour is not. Those things come and go with no consequence to anyone.

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      • The toothless UNGA resolution du jour is not. Those things come and go with no consequence to anyone.
        Correct. I bet next year they put forth another 18 resolutions concerning Israel that will all pass by over 90%.

        And I don't think defunding is a good option, but I also don't think playing nice diplomat changes behavior one iota. So, I don't fault or mind Haley's non-diplomatic political posturing. Nor do I care one lick that the vote against recognizing Israel's designated capital was lopsided. It always is.

        But, it's all for show. Haley's speech is a sop to folks like The Wizard and me. the entire UN gesture is a sop for progs and such -- gets folks at the NYT all worked up -- LOOK AT THE REBUKE!!!! And it's utterly, utterly meaningless because of the very nature of the organization.
        Dan Patrick: What was your reaction to [Urban Meyer being hired]?
        Brady Hoke: You know.....not....good.

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        • Hack,

          Wrt to Bush 41 building the case, let me ask you: if we weren't a member and we built our 'coalition of the willing' without UN help and went without presenting a case to the UN, would it have mattered?
          "The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is sometimes hard to verify their authenticity." -Abraham Lincoln

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          • Comment


            • Originally posted by AlabamAlum View Post
              DSL,

              What exactly do our aid dollars buy us with most of those countries? Do we consider them allies? Does it really give us influence that is manifested in any tangible way? If China starts giving Tanzania $1B (for example) while we cut them off, what is out net loss?

              I honestly don't know.
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              Shut the fuck up Donny!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by AlabamAlum View Post
                Hack,

                Wrt to Bush 41 building the case, let me ask you: if we weren't a member and we built our 'coalition of the willing' without UN help and went without presenting a case to the UN, would it have mattered?
                Uh....no.
                Shut the fuck up Donny!

                Comment


                • utterly meaningless because of the very nature of the organization

                  EFZ. Not even sure what to compare this to...except maybe...
                  Shut the fuck up Donny!

                  Comment


                  • I think the question that hack probably wrestles with a little is that he knows how massive US influence is already. We've had this discussion in terms of investment and cutting corporate taxes, but we all know and agree that the US is the epicenter for capital, investment and technology creation. Hack's point, which I think is fair one, is that we ought to charge folks a small (or larger, heh) premium for doing business in the US. Personally, I still haven't sorted out whether I think that's better than cutting the rate and going territorial (an interesting article tpday in the Australian Daily about fears of losing investment to the US w/ the tax cut, btw).

                    But the point is that I think hack fully acknowledges the rather obvious economic influence of the US. And I think his point about getting better bang for the buck through more direct dispersements is entirely true.

                    I also tend to think that a "coalition of the willing" is as effective as the UN.

                    So I have a hard time justifying US participating on any other grounds than "we ought to be part of the world's deliberative body." I don't think we'd lose much influence. I don't think we'd be hamstrung trying to piece together resolutions. But, I do think that we exert some influence by being part of the body (which is why I think getting out of TPP is on the whole bad).

                    Anywho, interesting discussion prompted by an entirely symbolic resolution followed by entirely symbolic comments.
                    Dan Patrick: What was your reaction to [Urban Meyer being hired]?
                    Brady Hoke: You know.....not....good.

                    Comment


                    • I also tend to think that a "coalition of the willing" is as effective as the UN.

                      The UN is not particularly effective at anything.
                      Shut the fuck up Donny!

                      Comment


                      • Shut the fuck up Donny!

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                        • Most fucking totally useless:

                          (A) UN
                          (B) The Wizard's Y-chromosome
                          (C) Cornhusker "defensive" coordinator
                          (D) "Wild" Hoss's internet connection
                          Dan Patrick: What was your reaction to [Urban Meyer being hired]?
                          Brady Hoke: You know.....not....good.

                          Comment


                          • (E) Mrs. Talent's Chastity Belt
                            Shut the fuck up Donny!

                            Comment


                            • The US has a whole lot of economic might. It is the world's largest economy (not for much longer, but still), and the world's most precious commodity (for now) is traded in dollars (for now). It remains the best place to innovate, in part because of an ecosystem already built up, but also in part because of an unbalanced approach to economic policy that may soon result in pitchforks. Or it may not. Americans, for now, have not realized the extent to which the quality of life here is inferior to places where the interests of corporations isn't supreme.

                              One thing that isn't changing is that the global financial system runs through New York. The world stores much of its gold holdings there, which underpins that legitimacy. And the US is not about to do anything stupid like reducing its debt. When our rivals load on on t-bills we have them by the balls.

                              But all that other stuff isn't set in stone. The IMF is obliged to HQ itself in the largest global economy, and that won't be us much longer. Oil is declining in importance. The US can no longer perceive the old GE/Siemens or Boeing/Airbus battles as two-player games, though. Chinese state-owned firms can compete in a whole lot of areas. African countries like Tanzania are places where contracts are available to build power plants and railroads and metro lines and whatnot, but the US no longer makes the effort to help GE or smaller firms compete with the cheaper Chinese entity. Power Africa was an attempt to do that, and a nice innovative change. (52 or 54 African countries voted against this latest UN resolution...)


                              But, bottom line, the US is not the massive power it was in 1945 when the global order was created, and shaped according to US wishes. The system is now ridden with loopholes and doesn't peform as it used to for the US, but there's still a cost-benefit analysis to walking away from it. IMO, unless the US proves it is NOT a waning power vis-a-vis China, it would be reckless to walk away from any institution created according to US wishes. And we're talking about less than 1% of the budget here.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by AlabamAlum View Post
                                Hack,

                                Wrt to Bush 41 building the case, let me ask you: if we weren't a member and we built our 'coalition of the willing' without UN help and went without presenting a case to the UN, would it have mattered?
                                The short answer is no. But I don't make short posts so let's expand this a bit.

                                In my view, the fact that the Bush administration thought they needed to seek UN approval for Operation Desert Storm through a coalition of UN member nations was ridiculous and made more so by the evidence they ginned up on WMDs to make their case.

                                The US set a terrible precedent for itself by asking the UN for permission to take steps they thought at the time were in their national security interests. Then after a very successful military OP, which they could have gotten French, British, Australian and Canadian participation without the UN resolutions, the US stopped short of securing Baghdad ostensibly for fear of UN members balking at that. That the UN was involved in the entire process contributed to the massive cluster-fuck that was post Bush I Iraq.

                                Many have written about this stating that if the US had acted unilaterally in invading Iraq that Stormin Normin Scwarzkopf would have taken and secured Bahgdad setting up an appropriate military administration of post war Iraq and fuck what the rest of the world though about that. The US had a good track record of putting Germany, and the rest of a decimated Europe, back on track after WWII. There should have been a Marshall plan for post war Iraq and there are plenty of experts who have written about this that think it would have precluded the shit storm that is the current ME and the impact of terrorism that is being spawned there.

                                The implications of the UN's influence on US policy in the ME both pre and post Bush I Iraq and the current state of affairs in that area of the world are a clear indicator of the UN's deleterious effect on world peace...... the ONE thing that is fundamental to the goals of the UN.

                                The bottom line is that the UN has been an obstacle in shaping a world order favorable to free, democratic principles and nations that embrace them. I don't agree that the US can't or should not have a, if not the, primary role in shaping the world order. I think one can argue that the notion that the shape of the world order can be developed through the cooperation of nations through the UN is utterly stupid and denies reality.
                                There is such a thing as redemption. Jim Harbaugh is redeemed at the expense of a fading Ryan Day and OSU. M wins back to back games v. OSU first time since 1999-2000​ - John Cooper was fired in 2000!!!

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