Michigan vs. FSU, Orange Bowl, 8pm, ESPN, Game Day - Post Game Discussion

[THE_WIZARD_]

Methinks thou protest too much...lol...

[hack]

Yep, that was his way to get his players to pipe down. Everyone is going to have times where they feel the official was wrong.

You have to remember they get one crack at it while the viewer at home gets many replays and multiple angles. As many times as you may find a call you thought was wanting think of how many times you thought there was a call that they got wrong and whe you saw the replay, they were right. Nobody ever remembers that.

Looking back at the Pistons 04 playoff run really helped in that category.

But none of that excuses the conference from not putting its best folks out there. And if not avoiding conflicts of interest, avoiding the appearance of them. Biggest The Game for the conference in a decade. When it's a big stage you get more scrutiny. Step up and be ready. Don't put a crew out there headed by a guy you once fired for incompetence. That's just asking for it.

[hack]

Methinks thou protest too much...lol...

piss off

[THE_WIZARD_]

xoxoxo

[hack]

Don't you have enough people here you flirt with already? You are looking for more?

[THE_WIZARD_]

You can never have too many bros...bro...

[hack]

Must be why you ref. A bro in every lockerroom...

[Jeff Buchanan]

For Rocky and Hack .......

My intent late Sunday afternoon when I closed the Game Day thread, was not to silence discussion but rather to let people cool off, apply some reason to the incessant bellowing about the officiating. As an aside, I noticed that Brain did this at mgoblog by asking for "no more officiating threads." Of course, like my action, it was ignored.

I feel strongly about getting past emotional events, cooling off and then re-engaging in rational discussion. I may have over-reached (the Dear Leader thing - heh) in that effort but it worked ..... to a certain extent. If you spent any time at mgoboards in the aftermath of The Game, you could see the potential for incitement to violence. I don't think there was anything close to that here but, I nonetheless had concerns. These were mostly centered around my wish to not allow our Forum to validate the negative perceptions of M football fans that surround that same group who support PSU and Tennessee football and whine incessantly about getting jobbed by the officials who are almost certainly involved in a conspiracy.

We've definitely moved beyond that and there has been some good points made within the Forum albeit all over it. But, I'd point out that it has become very rational.

[hack]

Sure. But we never have that kind of mgoboard silliness. That's fantasyland. Not that we don't have our own detours there, but mostly the lot of us aren't like that.

[CGVT]

For Rocky and Hack .......

My intent late Sunday afternoon when I closed the Game Day thread, was not to silence discussion but rather to let people cool off, apply some reason to the incessant bellowing about the officiating. As an aside, I noticed that Brain did this at mgoblog by asking for "no more officiating threads." Of course, like my action, it was ignored.

I feel strongly about getting past emotional events, cooling off and then re-engaging in rational discussion. I may have over-reached (the Dear Leader thing - heh) in that effort but it worked ..... to a certain extent. If you spent any time at mgoboards in the aftermath of The Game, you could see the potential for incitement to violence. I don't think there was anything close to that here but, I nonetheless had concerns. These were mostly centered around my wish to not allow our Forum to validate the negative perceptions of M football fans that surround that same group who support PSU and Tennessee football and whine incessantly about getting jobbed by the officials who are almost certainly involved in a conspiracy.

We've definitely moved beyond that and there has been some good points made within the Forum albeit all over it. But, I'd point out that it has become very rational.

It wasn't irrational when you shut it down

You over thought and came up with a solution to something that wasn't a problem.

Thanks for being the keeper of positive UofM pereceptions.

[Jeff Buchanan]

Hack ....... I think your entire call to action resides on the assumption that the Big Ten did a poor job in assigning the officials to this game.

We can't know that. What you are basing your outcry on is internet information about the records and personal histories of those officials involved in The Game.

You've asked several times to know how all the decisions regarding the assignment of officials goes down. How they are graded and so forth. I too have asked that question of others who I know have some information about this. I'm awaiting a response and I am told it is all out there if not somewhat hard to find. We'll see.

The point I'm making is that while your logic is sound, it relies on the acceptance of the underlying argument that the Big Ten did a poor job in assigning officials to The Game. I think it is a weak argument if not completely flawed.

Re the disputed calls..... There seems to be some valid questions posted here from an actual CFB official, among others I've read here and elsewhere with decent insight into the game of football and it's rules, that see the calls you are complaining about both in number and in definition that could have gone either way.

That they went 9/10 (your claim) in favor of the bucks is a reach. When you look at the volumes of video that is available on all of them, I do believe from my bystander eye, there were probably 6 valid officiating calls that I would ask for an explanation of why they were made/not made. The do not include the following:

• The first down spot
• No measurement on that spot
• The face mask call on the screen
• The USC on Harbaugh
• Maybe 2 PI calls where the official may not have been in position to see it or was focused on another of the 22 players on the field.
• I may have missed one or two but it's getting old explaining this to the outraged.

I also know there is a mechanism for calls about which a HC has questions to be addressed. Pretty sure that is underway now or is already over. I also know that once those questions are addressed, it's over. We outraged fans aren't going to hear anything about it.

It was pointed out to me when I asked, "well, how then do we go about holding officials accountable for making mistakes (assuming there were mistakes made)?", I was asked, "who do you want to have holding officials accountable?"

Immediately realizing I was about to be trapped into advocating, if the shoe were on the other foot, for the thousand or so enraged and probably armed truck drivers in the first 30 rows of seating in the stadium - those would have been the gentlemen that are osu fans who, if that first down call had never been made or been reversed, game over, M wins, would have hunted those officials and their families down threatening them with death and physical violence. It happens and has happened. Unfortunately that is part of the risk of being an official in a game like this. Dead if you do, dead if you don't. Personally, I'd not want to do that and I suspect there are plenty of officials who don't either.

Point being, you have to watch what you are advocating for here. I understand the need for some degree of privacy in these matters. Transparency, for this very reason, is not likely to happen and probably for good reason. IOW, you are pissing in the wind, Hack.

[Hannibal]

Hack -- expecting the system to change is hopeless. How many years have we been bitching about various unfair topics? Not just officiating. Oversigning, Stretchgate, schools getting slapped on the wrist for egregious cheating. Time to start working the system instead of expecting it to change.

[hack]

1. OK, I don't get your list unless you mixed up don't with does, but let's just call it 6 50/50 calls. Let's ignore that the PI Harbaugh complained about on Perry came in such proximity to a third-down flag called on Hill in a similar situation. Let's ignore the context and just ask what's a reasonable expectation for 50/50 calls on the road? 1? 2? Would anyone say zero is reasonable?

2. You've asked several times to know how all the decisions regarding the assignment of officials goes down. How they are graded and so forth. I too have asked that question of others who I know have some information about this. I'm awaiting a response and I am told it is all out there if not somewhat hard to find. We'll see. - let me know what you find. I tweeted at a few of the relevant reporters to see if they know, but nothing so far. Maybe they don't. Maybe the conference doesn't want to say. I might call the conference myself and ask.

3. The point I'm making is that while your logic is sound, it relies on the acceptance of the underlying argument that the Big Ten did a poor job in assigning officials to The Game. I think it is a weak argument if not completely flawed. - the fact that two simply hail from the state doesn't really count for me. The head of the crew once fired for incompetence? In the biggest version of your marquee game in a decade? Why do that? Why not send your best? That's just common sense. I personally don't know if the conference did a poor job or not, but the whole thing sure does suggest that one should first check on the method and then decide. Did they have a policy? Did they follow it? Reasonable questions to ask. That I would have to defend the desire to know the process and be curious about it is, to me, asinine. You haven't been around long enough to value accountability and understand how transparency contributes? We might just be fundamentally different kinds of people.

4. if that first down call had never been made or been reversed, game over, M wins, would have hunted those officials and their families down threatening them with death and physical violence. It happens and has happened. - well that's why there are cops on the field. And that's why the concept of home cooking exists. To a reasonable extent, it's just gonna happen. If it happens to an extent where zero of 6 to 10 50/50 calls go the visiting team's way, that's a problem. Jim Delaney is the commissioner, not Vince McMahon. So at that point do you decide to stock the first ten rows of Michigan Stadium with our finest thugs next year? Throw up your hands and say oh well? Or do you send your administrative people to make quietly make a fuss behind the scenes until you get some changes that work for everyone involved?

5. "who do you want to have holding officials accountable?" -- the correct response is ``are you saying they should not be held accountable?''

Conclusion: Hannibal is probably right. I like the culture of Michigan athletics and don't want to engage in a race to the bottom, but, fuggit. As far as reffing goes, the starting point is still ``how does the conference pick crews?'' Michigan has the world's largest alumni network, so it stands to reason that a good chunk of the available referee pool contains alums. Let's get started. I'm on board. Can we find our own version of Spartan Bob?

[SeattleLionsFan]

Hack is right about the officials.

And whomever said Drevno was not great this year was also correct.

[THE_WIZARD_]

The first down spot

The spot was determined to be past the 15 yard line via forward progress. Judgement call that was stood up by replay. There was no indisputable evidence to overturn. Had it been called short live...that may have held up as well.

No measurement on that spot

The series started at the 25. All they had to do was break the plane of the 15 yard line. A measurement is not needed and a moot point in that circumstance.

The face mask call on the screen

I have to be honest...don't recall that play. I will rewatch again to look for that.

The USC on Harbaugh

IMHO was justified. I think a vast majority of crews would have lit him up on that.

Maybe 2 PI calls where the official may not have been in position to see it or was focused on another of the 22 players on the field.

They missed the one on OSU plain and simple. The one on Michigan was less obvious but was PI and that ball in no way could have been deemed "uncatchable"...that is ludicrous. The uncatchable label is reserved for far more obvious times when there is 100% no way no how the receiver could catch it barring him being a combination of Michael Jordan and Superman.

JMO guys...I don't have a dog in this fight. I hate the vermin far more than M...but I'm also a pretty fair guy too. I know things look worse when you are looking through M colored glasses...it's natural.

Hell of a game. If OSU is #2 then M is #2-A.