DetroitLionsForum.com
Please support the forum by using this link to shop with our sponsor:

Go Back   DetroitLionsForum.com > Sports Discussion Forums > University of Michigan

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 21st, 2014, 03:49 PM   #2461
Wild Hoss
Senior Member
 
Wild Hoss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Buchanan View Post
That sentiment certainly resonates with me ..... but, it's not where things are trending.

The cat's out of the bag. Big time programs and even some of the smaller one's that have latched on to the media gravy train are getting rich. While the players, who are busting their asses for glory, their coaches and administrators buy million dollar homes and with interest free loans form their employers and bank huge sums of money securing their work free futures.

That situation is totally wrong on so many levels. It is no longer defensible and this notion of satisfying athletes with $2500 annual stipends is laughable.

Market forces intertwined with labor economics and the courts are going to force a reasonable outcome. It's just going to take a while.

I would think conferences would be much better off and shorten the process by quitting the NCAA, dumping the anachronistic concept of amateurism in college sports and forming some other national level association to provide guidance. The NCAA is a huge albatross just getting in the way. The Presidents have the power. Someone or some group of them just needs to step up to the plate.
I would point to Hannibal's reply here. Just because they aren't getting paid in term of direct dollars doesn't mean they are not compensated, and well compensated. The tuition, books, housing, food, and clothing adds up to a substantial sum...which most of us paid for ourselves. And the costs of which are ever-increasing.

Now, the schools are making ridiculous money, I agree. Does that merit the players being paid though? Should a janitor at Apple for instance, make substantially more than a janitor at a local pizza joint for doing to same job, just because Apple makes more revenue? Should the pizza joint janitor have his wages doubled if the pizza joint's revenue doubles?

Yes, the organization makes insane money off their efforts...welcome to reality. :shrugs:

That money comes people who root for the name on the front of the jersey, not the back.

Last edited by Wild Hoss; April 21st, 2014 at 03:53 PM.
Wild Hoss is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old April 21st, 2014, 04:13 PM   #2462
hack
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 13,159
Correct. But can we do this without the slavery/plantation rhetoric please?

Not talking about the players. I meant the price tag of a college degree compared with its actual value.
hack is online now   Reply With Quote Top
Old April 21st, 2014, 04:16 PM   #2463
hack
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 13,159
Now, the schools are making ridiculous money, I agree. Does that merit the players being paid though? Should a janitor at Apple for instance, make substantially more than a janitor at a local pizza joint for doing to same job, just because Apple makes more revenue? Should the pizza joint janitor have his wages doubled if the pizza joint's revenue doubles?

That's simply how our society generally tends to pay people -- according to their ability to generate cash flow, unless it's possible to take away their leverage at the negotiating table. Student athletics is one of those areas where leverage has been stripped from one side.
hack is online now   Reply With Quote Top
Old April 21st, 2014, 04:39 PM   #2464
Wild Hoss
Senior Member
 
Wild Hoss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,176
They have leverage...every single one of them is free to quit playing football anytime they so chose. If they are unhappy with their situation they can make a go of it in life without a college degree, or find the money to attend on their own.

As for pay...its really got nothing to do with society; its a market issue. A janitor at Apple makes a similar wage to the guy at the pizza joint because its the same work, and the market has found equilibrium at that wage. The earnings of the respective employer are immaterial.

Last edited by Wild Hoss; April 21st, 2014 at 04:42 PM.
Wild Hoss is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old April 21st, 2014, 04:48 PM   #2465
hack
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 13,159
The earnings of the respective employer are immaterial.

Agreed, in the sense that bankers at money-losing banks are paid roughly in line with bankers at profitable ones. Couldn't agree less re leverage. There's not even a negotiation, on paper, much less any leverage.
hack is online now   Reply With Quote Top
Old April 21st, 2014, 06:33 PM   #2466
Jeff Buchanan
Senior Member
 
Jeff Buchanan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 6,704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Hoss View Post
..... its a market issue. A janitor at Apple makes a similar wage to the guy at the pizza joint because its the same work, and the market has found equilibrium at that wage. The earnings of the respective employer are immaterial.
I hesitate but here goes .....

Economists will argue this point but at the macro level, unrestrained capital markets do not find the kind of equilibrium I think you are referring to in a micro sense. But I get your point.

Labor is at a disadvantage in unrestrained capital markets. For example, real world, why would Apple pay US wages to assemble the iPhone when they can do it in Chinese "factories" (that, BTW, work 24/7/365) for a tenth of those wages? They wouldn't and they don't.

There has to be some degree of regulation at some level to make Capitalism work in an equitable way.... if you define working as some level of fairness between the distribution of earned income between labor and the capitalists (the term widely applied here).

Fundamentally, the rights of the players .... IF and ONLY IF .... they are deemed employees (workers) by the courts are in the forefront of this discussion. Its murky territory, I acknowledge this. But I also believe, in the modern age of these college sports and when it comes to College Basketball and Football, the student athletes, the players, are the ones responsible for the enormous amounts of money being earned by the upper tier participants in College Sports.

In your position that getting an education IS, IN FACT, adequate compensation, I would simply ask, would you go to work for Apple for nothing if they told you we (Apple) are going to provide you a job with an opportunity to expand your knowledge about the Apple iOS?

Last edited by Jeff Buchanan; April 21st, 2014 at 07:10 PM.
Jeff Buchanan is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old April 22nd, 2014, 04:54 AM   #2467
Ghengis Jon
Senior Member
 
Ghengis Jon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Land of ice and snow
Posts: 1,915
Your very last statement about Apple is inadequate, but not unfair. You neglect that part of the 'non-compensation' is room (housing most of the world would gladly accept), board, (food in both quality and quantity that most humans do not receive), health care (U-M healthcare system hardly being substandard), exposure required to have opportunity to make vastly more than what you would at Apple (the NFL) and that irrevocable thing called an education where you could say eff Apple, I want to be a brain surgeon.

All my usual silliness aside, if you want all the poison removed from college athletics, you have to remove the money. But because sports has become such a sacred cow people declare you can not do that and so no one tries. Its much easier to wring one's hands than do something about it. Compensation is putting a band aid on one little toe when gangrene has set in on both legs.
Ghengis Jon is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old April 22nd, 2014, 06:11 AM   #2468
Tony G
Senior Member
 
Tony G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Downriver
Posts: 19,530
Quote:
All my usual silliness aside, if you want all the poison removed from college athletics, you have to remove the money. But because sports has become such a sacred cow people declare you can not do that and so no one tries. Its much easier to wring one's hands than do something about it. Compensation is putting a band aid on one little toe when gangrene has set in on both legs.
"Removing the money" is an impossibilty because it is there from the top down. The only way to remove the money would be to have less eyeballs tuned in to CFB broadcasts, scale down the stadiums and ban sale of the gear from the teams.

This forbes article shows the money involved for the 2013 preseason top 25 alone
http://www.forbes.com/sites/aliciaje...43738665494957

The top 25 had revenues of $1.2B and profits of $675M. U-M was second in profits at 61M behind Texas at 77M.

You can no more take the money out of CFB than you can disarm all the nuclear weapons in the world, remove all handguns from the US, or restore virginity.
__________________
Benny Blades~"If you break down this team man for man, we have talent to compare with any team."
Tony G is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old April 22nd, 2014, 09:12 AM   #2469
Ghengis Jon
Senior Member
 
Ghengis Jon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Land of ice and snow
Posts: 1,915
A Herculean task indeed, but my offered "PBS solution" would change the landscape. Not something to be discussed but instituted. Money is a lot like power, once grasped, most cling on to it with a deathgrip. A real solution (of any sort) would be resisted with psychotic intensity and hyperbola. Athletic competition was not instituted on a collegiate level with revenue generation in mind. A return to its original intent is simply a beancounter/power monger's worst nightmare. Its actual merit would be vilified and distorted.
Ghengis Jon is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old April 22nd, 2014, 09:34 AM   #2470
Tony G
Senior Member
 
Tony G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Downriver
Posts: 19,530
You would need a catclysmic event to facilitate such radical behavior change. Something along the line of the Jerry Sandusky case in magnitude but on a widespread national level. Until there are sufficient persons harmed by the current system, it will not change.
(Note: this is the same mentality that drives aviation safety. Regs change AFTER a major accident, not before it.)
__________________
Benny Blades~"If you break down this team man for man, we have talent to compare with any team."
Tony G is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old April 22nd, 2014, 02:14 PM   #2471
entropy
Senior Member
 
entropy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Kansas City MO
Posts: 10,005
I'd like to see the equality debate between the cost and value of a NW educations vs ole miss.
__________________
Grammar... The difference between feeling your nuts and feeling you're nuts.
entropy is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old April 22nd, 2014, 02:16 PM   #2472
entropy
Senior Member
 
entropy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Kansas City MO
Posts: 10,005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Buchanan View Post
I hesitate but here goes .....

Economists will argue this point but at the macro level, unrestrained capital markets do not find the kind of equilibrium I think you are referring to in a micro sense. But I get your point.

Labor is at a disadvantage in unrestrained capital markets. For example, real world, why would Apple pay US wages to assemble the iPhone when they can do it in Chinese "factories" (that, BTW, work 24/7/365) for a tenth of those wages? They wouldn't and they don't.

There has to be some degree of regulation at some level to make Capitalism work in an equitable way.... if you define working as some level of fairness between the distribution of earned income between labor and the capitalists (the term widely applied here).

Fundamentally, the rights of the players .... IF and ONLY IF .... they are deemed employees (workers) by the courts are in the forefront of this discussion. Its murky territory, I acknowledge this. But I also believe, in the modern age of these college sports and when it comes to College Basketball and Football, the student athletes, the players, are the ones responsible for the enormous amounts of money being earned by the upper tier participants in College Sports.

In your position that getting an education IS, IN FACT, adequate compensation, I would simply ask, would you go to work for Apple for nothing if they told you we (Apple) are going to provide you a job with an opportunity to expand your knowledge about the Apple iOS?

And yet in capital markets there does exist training or velocity programs. Even in unions, wages for new workers are different than season reflecting a learning curve. Education is an investment. So what is the fair value of compensating an investment like this?
__________________
Grammar... The difference between feeling your nuts and feeling you're nuts.
entropy is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old April 22nd, 2014, 02:44 PM   #2473
hack
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 13,159
Yeah but nobody pays fair value. Tuition rises against inflation faster than almost anything else you can buy at a non-negotiable price in this country. The ratio of tuition paid to salary expectations is far smaller. The reasonable expectation of getting taught by tenured faculty is falling too. Odds are larger you're getting taught by an adjunct that isn't paid a living wage, or that more of your education is in the hands of grad student.

It seems silly to speak of fair value, as if it could be set based on any set of measurables. Not a free enough market. The consumer of this education has no leverage in order to influence prices in a way that promotes quality.
hack is online now   Reply With Quote Top
Old April 23rd, 2014, 09:55 AM   #2474
Wild Hoss
Senior Member
 
Wild Hoss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Buchanan View Post
I hesitate but here goes .....
LOL. I hear ya...few people like these discussions Jeff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Buchanan View Post

Economists will argue this point but at the macro level, unrestrained capital markets do not find the kind of equilibrium I think you are referring to in a micro sense. But I get your point.

Labor is at a disadvantage in unrestrained capital markets. For example, real world, why would Apple pay US wages to assemble the iPhone when they can do it in Chinese "factories" (that, BTW, work 24/7/365) for a tenth of those wages? They wouldn't and they don't.

There has to be some degree of regulation at some level to make Capitalism work in an equitable way.... if you define working as some level of fairness between the distribution of earned income between labor and the capitalists (the term widely applied here).

Fundamentally, the rights of the players .... IF and ONLY IF .... they are deemed employees (workers) by the courts are in the forefront of this discussion. Its murky territory, I acknowledge this. But I also believe, in the modern age of these college sports and when it comes to College Basketball and Football, the student athletes, the players, are the ones responsible for the enormous amounts of money being earned by the upper tier participants in College Sports.

In your position that getting an education IS, IN FACT, adequate compensation, I would simply ask, would you go to work for Apple for nothing if they told you we (Apple) are going to provide you a job with an opportunity to expand your knowledge about the Apple iOS?
I donít think your outsourcing example works here, within the janitorial metric, simply because the jobs have to stay here....if that makes sense. You cannot outsource the sweeping of the floors of your office in Oregon to somebody in Taipei, if you get what I mean. In that sense, an equilibrium has been reached...what one company in California pays for that service will be close to what others in California will pay. What their respective revenues are doesnít come into play.

Secondly, I donít really buy the argument that the players ďearnĒ the money. The players play...but people buy tickets to see the uniform. Thatís why places like NU and Michigan sell out year after year, despite the fact player turnover is 100% every five years. As much as I dislike the comparison...players are just widgets.

Lastly...I donít think the second Apple comparison works either, because in that example others would be paying- handsome sums- for the same opportunity. If you or I could get that opportunity for free, then it would be compensation. JMO.
Wild Hoss is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old April 30th, 2014, 02:02 PM   #2475
Ghengis Jon
Senior Member
 
Ghengis Jon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Land of ice and snow
Posts: 1,915
Upholding the Criminoles' reputation:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/30/us/flo...html?hpt=hp_t2
Ghengis Jon is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old April 30th, 2014, 05:03 PM   #2476
entropy
Senior Member
 
entropy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Kansas City MO
Posts: 10,005
Miscellaneous/OT

Like he needs to shoplift...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Grammar... The difference between feeling your nuts and feeling you're nuts.
entropy is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old May 2nd, 2014, 11:24 AM   #2477
Tony G
Senior Member
 
Tony G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Downriver
Posts: 19,530

The College Football Playoff revealed its new national championship trophy today.
__________________
Benny Blades~"If you break down this team man for man, we have talent to compare with any team."
Tony G is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old May 2nd, 2014, 03:53 PM   #2478
entropy
Senior Member
 
entropy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Kansas City MO
Posts: 10,005
http://fansided.com/2014/04/30/jamei...ternet/#!HkzmD

http://www.tigerdroppings.com/rant/p...at-Publix.aspx


some great ones here
__________________
Grammar... The difference between feeling your nuts and feeling you're nuts.
entropy is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old May 5th, 2014, 10:01 AM   #2479
entropy
Senior Member
 
entropy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Kansas City MO
Posts: 10,005
Congrats to Big Ten co-champs Michigan and Nebraska on earning the top seeds in the Big Ten softball tourney.
__________________
Grammar... The difference between feeling your nuts and feeling you're nuts.
entropy is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old May 5th, 2014, 11:23 AM   #2480
lineygoblue
Senior Member
 
lineygoblue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 8,085
Yeah, Michigan had a chance to win the championship outright, but got hammered by Wisconsin on Friday night, and ended up losing 6-5 on Sunday.

Not a good way to enter the B1G tournament.

They're likely in the NCAA's even if they don't win the B1G tournament, but they're going to be on the road somewhere distant, and will have an early exit. They're quite young, and the future is bright.
__________________
I put my phone on "airplane" mode, and now its in a holding pattern over Atlanta
lineygoblue is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
All logos and trademarks in this site are property of their respective owners. The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © DetroitLionsForum.com.
This site is a non-profit fan site and IS NOT affiliated with the NFL or Detroit Lions or any other sports team. Please visit the official site of the Detroit Lions for official information on the Lions.