US Politics - 2020 Presidential Election - GOP v Dem cage fight (ENTER AT YOUR PERIL)

[Iron Lion]

The main guy in the Bible also says to pay your taxes. Yet churches don't do this, despite receiving 911 aid and other amenities, despite also refusing shelter to hurricane victims, etc.

I'll tell you what. If an atheist organization was purportedly doing good and charitable works all across the globe (or flat earth, sorry if I offend), but was also raping children by the thousands, and protecting the child rapists and moving them around so they can continue to rape other children and evade capture, and oh by the way, this atheist organization had its own city-nation wherein the organization's leader is the king of said city-nation, and the king of this nation was pressuring citizens of other nations to obstruct justice in their own nations and report child rape to that king only instead of reporting it to local authorities, thereby, again, prolonging and expanding the issue of child rape, well I reckon this atheist organization would be utterly crushed like a criminal organization deserves to be, and its massive vaults would be forfeit, and its king would be imprisoned along with the high-ranking members who knew about this worldwide conspiracy. What would not happen is, well, nothing, and in fact so much nothing that this organization is allowed to then get caught doing the same exact thing 20 years later. Imagine this organization getting caught 20 years later and the high ranking members are raping children and giving them golden necklaces to wear to signal to other high ranking members that said child has already been raped and thus is "primed" for more, not to mention other sick shit like collecting urine, underwear, or pubic hairs. And imagine this happens and still a whole lot of nothing happens to this organization. And imagine there is another group of atheists, maybe they call themselves agnostics, and these agnostics protested against the atheists long ago not because of the child rape, but just differences in philosophy, and now these politicized agnostics kinda don't really care about what the atheists are doing, don't protest one bit about any of the child rape, and don't view them as a criminal organization one bit, and in fact in many cases claim that agnosticism is the dominant world religion, which is only possible if they count the atheists along with them as the same group. And imagine further that these politicized agnostics parade themselves around as the pinnacle of morality. Is this still not a joke to you? I mean, we could go even further with this, but this should've been ridiculous several lines ago. But to hundreds of millions of registered American voters, this is totally sane and normal.

[chemiclord]

They don't pay taxes because of separation of church and state.

Of course, that's the only aspect of that separation that conservatives believe in. They absolutely want the church to dictate how everyone else lives their life. Because they want to be left alone, while refusing to leave anyone else alone.

They are the modern day Pharisees. If you actually read Jesus Christ's teachings, you'd see everything he despises and warns against in the modern GOP.

[Iron Lion]

There's no separation of church and state if they don't pay taxes and yet get all of the benefits that come from paying taxes. That's just the church leeching off of the state. An actual separation would be the church not paying into the system and the system not bestowing benefits onto them.

But even then, they're occupying American land that could be used for something like a tax-paying 7/11 that benefits society with monetary input. If there's an actual separation of church and state, what land would they be occupying? Not American land. Not if they are separate.

Separation of church and state means that the church is not allowed to use the state as a platform. You know, like displaying their edicts or commandments on government property.

Whose face is on the dollar bill? Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. Hasn't changed one bit. Couldn't possibly be more clear.

[froot loops]

You aren't going to get far calling DaGeezer a pharisee, he thinks they are the heroes of the New Testament. It's a compliment to him.

He also roots for Mr. Potter in It's a Wonderful Life.

[kreton]

Well said. I believe we all have an obligation to those less fortunate, to the widows, orphans, and those who are unable to support themselves. I figure that is what makes a civil society. The Bible says we should tithe to support these unfortunates, but I suspect most here do not do that. It is so much easier to vote to take the money of others and virtue signal with that money.

JG Spartan made good points too.

The Inspector General of the Department of Labor announced yesterday that the amount of fraud in unemployment payments under the Covid programs has reached $ 45.6 billion. Previously the amount was supposed to be $ 16 Billion. How much was stolen from PPP? To JG's point, we know that the disability program is so abused in Appalachia that it is a lifestyle. How much welfare money is being spent on drugs? I understand liberals view spending as an "investment" because that is a good word. Why do we pay three times as much to educate a child as do in other first-world countries? What about California's $ 400,000/year pensions for Fire and Police retirees, or teacher pensions in MI for that matter?

You can pay $ 300/share for Microsoft today. The market price is about $ 150. though. Your $ 300. is still an "investment" but wouldn't it be better to pay a market rate?

We need 87,000 people tasked will stopping welfare cheating rather than 87,000 new IRS agents. The reason we have such a low labor participation rate is that people have learned they can make do fine without a job by taking various forms of welfare. That is not good for the country.

Oh, I see no one other than JG has spoken up to say they do not get money from the government. If you rob Peter to pay Paul you can count on Paul's vote.

The simple fact that you read my post and somehow decided to make this about your bs political agenda is simply pathetic.

I'll simplify here. Helping fellow Americans should not be a political divide. Helping people in need is always the right thing. Always. Not just when it helps Trump. Not, your hate filled "let them starve to try to force them to work" narrative.

Americans are starving. Americans are freezing. Americans are suffering. Yet your focus is on making sure they dont steal. Fuck off.

Also - pretending to use the bible to justify your disgusting attitude is just makes it more pathetic. People who realize that they are shit and then try to hide behind religion to perpetuate their hate are sad.

[Nick Pappageorgio]

There's no separation of church and state if they don't pay taxes and yet get all of the benefits that come from paying taxes. That's just the church leeching off of the state. An actual separation would be the church not paying into the system and the system not bestowing benefits onto them.

But even then, they're occupying American land that could be used for something like a tax-paying 7/11 that benefits society with monetary input. If there's an actual separation of church and state, what land would they be occupying? Not American land. Not if they are separate.

Separation of church and state means that the church is not allowed to use the state as a platform. You know, like displaying their edicts or commandments on government property.

Whose face is on the dollar bill? Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. Hasn't changed one bit. Couldn't possibly be more clear.

Man…this is nuts. I’m an agnostic (big surprise, I know)…and what you said is crazy.

You think that a religious organization that makes most of their money from donations (ostensibly donated from people who have already paid income taxes on that money)…and does billions of dollars in charitable work all across the globe…is wasting space and needs to pay a high tax-rate.

I’m assuming your liberal hypocrisy has no issues with an org/charity like BLM paying no taxes….and using the revenue to buy multi-million dollar “retreats” for BLM leadership, chartered planes, or any of the other money not spent on charitable shit.

The idea of taxing the life out of any organization that doesn’t agree with your delicate sensibilities and your general fear or religion….well, how socialist of you.

You’re gonna make a good little communist when the revolution comes. I’m guessing you’re gonna love turning over your neighbors and loved ones to be re-educated so they can agree with every word you say.

Charities and religious organizations are tax free for a reason….they’re important to people and are mostly paid for on already-taxed money.

[kreton]

Man…this is nuts. I’m an agnostic (big surprise, I know)…and what you said is crazy.

You think that a religious organization that makes most of their money from donations (ostensibly donated from people who have already paid income taxes on that money)…and does billions of dollars in charitable work all across the globe…is wasting space and needs to pay a high tax-rate.

I’m assuming your liberal hypocrisy has no issues with an org/charity like BLM paying no taxes….and using the revenue to buy multi-million dollar “retreats” for BLM leadership, chartered planes, or any of the other money not spent on charitable shit.

The idea of taxing the life out of any organization that doesn’t agree with your delicate sensibilities and your general fear or religion….well, how socialist of you.

You’re gonna make a good little communist when the revolution comes. I’m guessing you’re gonna love turning over your neighbors and loved ones to be re-educated so they can agree with every word you say.

Charities and religious organizations are tax free for a reason….they’re important to people and are mostly paid for on already-taxed money.

You good at riddles?

How can you tell when a Maga worshipping, America hating, guy has lost an argument?

He starts crying about imaginary socialism.

[Nick Pappageorgio]

No….the idea of fearing religion and monetarily punishing institutions that the state fears is very socialism-ish

One day you’ll read a history book and see what I mean.

[Da Geezer]

The simple fact that you read my post and somehow decided to make this about your bs political agenda is simply pathetic.

I'll simplify here. Helping fellow Americans should not be a political divide. Helping people in need is always the right thing. Always. Not just when it helps Trump. Not, your hate filled "let them starve to try to force them to work" narrative.

Americans are starving. Americans are freezing. Americans are suffering. Yet your focus is on making sure they dont steal. Fuck off.

Also - pretending to use the bible to justify your disgusting attitude is just makes it more pathetic. People who realize that they are shit and then try to hide behind religion to perpetuate their hate are sad.

Wow. That is a bit of an overreaction. What I am saying, with contemporaneous proof, is that there is massive fraud in the welfare programs as now constituted. Of every welfare dollar spent, only 22 cents gets to the poor, or starving, or freezing person. The 78 cents goes to the bureaucracy that distributes the money. And the bureaucracy votes nearly 100% for the Ds.

I'm not sure there are Americans starving or freezing unless they want to. I'd like to see some statistics on that. I suspect you work in that industry or are a recipient of its largess.

You used the word "invest" and I simply said that no reasonable person would pay double for a stock and consider that an investment. We spend double what other nations do on educating a child and get the worse results. You evidently believe we should "invest" more. The most recent number for the amount of money a welfare family of four receives is $ 30,000 in direct aid, plus Medicaid and other benefits.

But mostly I disagree with your view of what the Bible says about helping the widows, orphans, and the destitute. It says a person should give at least 10% of his income to such causes. How are you doing on that one, Kenton? I suspect that you don't give any more than Al Gore did/does, something like .04%. What you want to do is vote to take away the money of others by force and then distribute it through a system that supports you and your political party. And then you virtue signal that you are all concerned with the unfortunate, when in fact you are a selfish hypocrite. The Bible says, "By their works ye shall know them." What time and money are you personally giving to all those starving, freezing, and suffering Americans that you are so concerned about?

I want to point out again that no one on this forum has said that they do not receive a government check as income. That's the reality of the Progs here.

[Da Geezer]

They don't pay taxes because of separation of church and state.

Of course, that's the only aspect of that separation that conservatives believe in. They absolutely want the church to dictate how everyone else lives their life. Because they want to be left alone, while refusing to leave anyone else alone.

They are the modern day Pharisees. If you actually read Jesus Christ's teachings, you'd see everything he despises and warns against in the modern GOP.

I agree with you about the separation of church and state.

I've said often that there should be no 501(c)(3) deductions on a taxpayer's income tax. Period. This should be true for all charities including those family foundations that the rich use to shelter their money from taxes, particularly the death tax. Just this week the guy who owns Patagonia placed his assets in a charitable trust that protects him from death taxes and gives his family control over the asset while not paying taxes. It will save him $ 700 million. Let's just cut out this charade. I'll bet that 1/3 of the IRS's time is spent dealing with the intricacies of the code that protect a person from taxes. Joe Biden set up Sub S corporations that allow income to be "passed through" to the principal without paying SS tax. Totally legal and widely used.

How about let giving be for giving's sake? When a person gives $ 100 to a church (let's just assume a 30% marginal tax rate), the government subsidizes the church by $ 30. Why should atheists have to do that? In the same way, why should I be forced to support Soros' Open Society Foundations?

But, chemi, I suspect you have experienced what actual giving does, and how it benefits the giver. We all have seen someone who is sorting out their groceries at the check-out counter and given them an extra $ 20 so they can get what they need, not what they can afford. Feels good. And that is the Image of God in man.

[Iron Lion]

Man…this is nuts. I’m an agnostic (big surprise, I know)…and what you said is crazy.

"Agnostic," when used colloquially, hardly means anything at all. I used it in my other post just as a shortcut because the post was already long-winded and it was a clear metaphor. So you've really said nothing here.

You think that a religious organization that makes most of their money from donations (ostensibly donated from people who have already paid income taxes on that money)…and does billions of dollars in charitable work all across the globe…is wasting space and needs to pay a high tax-rate.

By this logic, I shouldn't have to pay sales tax at Walmart since I've already paid income tax on the money I'm spending.

Furthermore, I question their religious status if they refuse to abide by the edicts of their own religion. You know, render unto Caesar...

On top of this, I couldn't care less about their charitable deeds if it comes with child rape. Do you want food and shelter and... that... or would you rather eat from the garbage and sleep under a bridge? I know my answer. These people literally engaged in a worldwide conspiracy to protect child molesters. They're not a religious organization. They're a criminal organization. At some point, repeatedly raping our children and coercing our citizens to cover it up instead of reporting the crime becomes an act of war. But apparently our tolerance to that is rather high.

I don't understand why it is relevant that they get their money from donations. If they need money they can simply charge for their "services." If that's against their religion, it's not any more so than being tax exempt. Jesus never endorsed a tax-exempt church. He endorsed the exact opposite. So if you don't want to pay taxes, you're not a Christian church. Either that or maybe you're mostly alligned with Jesus but you think he was wrong on that issue.

Lastly, if they are receiving things like 911 aid and other services that come with paying taxes, then uh, duh, they should be paying into that. I can't walk into Macy's and get free shit just because I gave free shit to someone else.

I’m assuming your liberal hypocrisy has no issues with an org/charity like BLM paying no taxes….and using the revenue to buy multi-million dollar “retreats” for BLM leadership, chartered planes, or any of the other money not spent on charitable shit.

Lol, assumptions. Man this paragraph looks dumb. What part of anything I've ever said indicates anything in your above paragraph? When did I say I was a liberal? When did I discuss BLM? Are you saying that BLM should or shouldn't be taxed? Have you never heard of church leaders buying huge mansions and jets? Joel Osteen, Ken Copeland, etc. Google their houses.

Do you put any thought into anything?

The idea of taxing the life out of any organization that doesn’t agree with your delicate sensibilities and your general fear or religion….well, how socialist of you.

You’re gonna make a good little communist when the revolution comes. I’m guessing you’re gonna love turning over your neighbors and loved ones to be re-educated so they can agree with every word you say.

I like how you seem to indicate that a government of the people and by the people isn't allowed to vote for socialism or communism. Lol, do you know what America even is?

China has one of the most evil governments on earth. I want nothing to do with the CCP. But their version of communism is as relevant to us as their version of housing. Let's throw away all of real estate because China's idea of real estate doesn't work. Can you even explain what communism or socialism is? I'm neither for nor against either at this point.

Charities and religious organizations are tax free for a reason….they’re important to people and are mostly paid for on already-taxed money.

This is the dumbest shit I've heard in my life.

Everything I spend money on is important to me, therefore it should be tax free.

Every dollar I spend is already-taxed money, therefore I shouldn't pay further taxes.

You should be embarrassed. I'm sorry.

[-Deborah-]

Geezer says: I want to point out again that no one on this forum has said that they do not receive a government check as income. That's the reality of the Progs here.

I really hope I am misunderstanding your point here. As if the lack of assertion about a government check proves anything? 🙄

[-Deborah-]

And also...

[Nick Pappageorgio]

Agnosticism means literally…cannot be known or not known.

i agree it’s used incorrectly in most contexts today….but not by me.

religious people know there’s a god….atheists know there isn’t a god. Me…i don’t know and I’m comfortable that I don’t.

But in the context of the last post I was saying “I don’t have I dog in this fight.”…sorry if that message was too coded for you to comprehend.

the sales tax example is way off….charitable donations aren’t “sales” and should never be treated as such (even if IL doesn’t agree with the charity’s philosophy). It’s just a bad example…do better.

I added BLM as an example of another charity that doesn’t pay taxes…but a more liberal leaner. FTR….don’t think either should pay taxes. Cuz I’m not a hypocrite

I already qualified how punishment of institutions and fear of religion is historically a socialist quality.


so….when you just say how “dumb” or “stupid” the arguments are….gaslighting. Everything I said was relevant …it might be inconvenient to your sensibilities. But not “dumbest shit you’ve ever heard in your life”.

gaslighting behavior

[Iron Lion]

Gaslighting behavior is saying that you should be religiously exempt from taxes because of your belief in a religion which tells you to pay taxes.