osu 63, Michigan 39

[iam416]

There is literally no way I'm reading that. I. Just. Don't. Care.

I'm more than willing to discuss relevant issues, but ref bitchfests will never be relevant to me. Ever. On teams I coach, I take kids out of the game for arguing with the officials and never, ever let them blame calls. Ever.

YMMV and does vary.YMMVADV.

[THE_WIZARD_]

Buchanan with the first pre-emptive WWCAW strike! Yowza! It's only Monday!

Look you can analyze the hell out of poor/suspect/bad officiating and how they relate to the final score/injuries etc. I think AA is correct...for the most part most crews I see get things pretty damn right...and when they don't there is remedy in the form or review for many of the human errors. Do we get it wrong sometimes...sure. Is in ineptness? No. Maybe there are a fraction of Division I officials who just plain shouldn't be out there...I know of two I can think of but on a crew of 8 their ineptness rears it's ugly head rarely. I have more of an issue with some of the new rules that have been incorporated in the name of "player safety" than I do the actual officiating on the field...and also an issue when the review booth gets it wrong. Rarely and I mean FUCKING RARELY does the officiating determine the outcome of a game. Ever. Of course you WWCAW folks will argue. Lol.

That being said...

fuckin' refs

[Hannibal]

OSU 31 UM 20

Michigan's defense has gotten exposed badly the past two weeks. Very reminiscent of previous Novembers where we went into the month thinking that we could stop people and we found out we couldn't (e.g. 2004, 2006, 2015). Offense and playcaling in the red zone continue to be hot garbage. and we have not beaten a really good team on the road literally for 11 years (MSU this year sucks). Meanwhile, OSU has solved their problems on offense since the Purdue game although that defense is still a turd. But Michigan can't do the things that Nebraska and Maryland did to exploit it. Haskins looked pretty good running the ball against Maryland. I don't understand why it took Urban so long to let him run it a few times. His throwing is incredible too -- he was dropping dimes into receivers' hands constantly all day.

[Jeff Buchanan]

Fair enough. I'm with you on the complaining about refereeing.

I definitely got aggravated by the hit on Berkley Edwards and the clapping by IU players as the perpetrator of that hit left the field. Until well after the game, I didn't really have a sense of how Winovich got injured and the chippyness that probably led up to it. I was also unaware of the contextual argument that Seth's post advanced .......

..... The point of the two post I made about the O'Neil crew was to raise the specific issue, the same one Seth raised in his Tweet, of the potential that weak enforcement of defined PF conduct by referees contributes to injuries.

I'm fine with you not agreeing with this as it is apparent you don't.

[iam416]

I'll say one more thing. Almost every player ejected for targeting receives high fives from teammates as they run off. It's almost rote behavior at this point.

TBH, I'd rather talk IU-M than looking forward to the beatdown, but that doesn't seem to the point of this thread.

[lineygoblue]

Linesman, you read things here and post when you feel like it is appropriate. It's appropriate. Post, damn it.

lol.. ok .. since you asked so nicely, .. I'm going to make one post this week, and this is it. Read on at your own risk.

Firstly, (is that a word?) I'll say we're about to find out if Michigan and Harbaugh have had enough of being pushed around by oLIEo and Meyer. If they've had enough, they'll do something about it this weekend. If not, it will be more of the same, and more excuses. On paper they have all the advantages. Playing in Columbus shouldn't make a difference. Michigan is clearly the better team. If they choke this one away, I don't want to hear any excuses. They've been preparing for this game for a year now. Its time to kick ass and take names. Yes, I said "ass".

Now, regarding the officiating concerns. I was actually hoping that O'Neill's crew would be assigned to this game, because I think his crew gives us the best chance of having a fairly officiated ballgame. But, I don't think the B1G would assign the same crew to Michigan two weeks in a row. So, its going to be somebody else. I could see the B1G spitefully assigning the same crew from 2 years ago with the three Ohio residents on the crew. I wouldn't put that past them. To be clear, I'm not asking for a pro-Michigan crew. I want a totally neutral crew that calls the game fairly, and down the middle. If Michigan screws up and commits a lot of stupid penalties, then flag the crap out them. But do the same to the red team under the same circumstances.

When it comes to the "targeting" thing throughout football, (NFL, CFB, HS) I think the INTENT of the rule is honorable and right. But, I think what is happening in too many cases, is its not being enforced the way it was intended. What the original intent was, was to stop a tackler from lining up a defenseless ball carrier, and absolutely lighting him up, above the shoulders, with his own helmet. Too many coaches over the years have coached their players to lower their heads, and use their helmets as a weapon to 'punish' the ball carrier. "Teach him a lesson for coming into your area"... How many times have you former players heard that? I did, all the time when I played. THAT is what the rule intended to take out of the game. Using the helmet as a weapon to inflict punishment on defenseless players. I don't think its being enforced consistently, or with the correct intent.

To me, when you have a ball carrier, and a defender coming together and a big hit is about to take place, if they BOTH lower their helmets, and make contact, helmet-to-helmet, then you have NOTHING. Both players initiated the helmet to helmet contact. (what is the defender supposed to do, take a helmet in the belly?) That is what the replay official should look at and OVER-RULE the Targeting call if BOTH players initiated the helmet contact. Maybe you throw a flag, and WARN BOTH players, but you have no penalty. What's wrong with picking up a flag and announcing both players have been warned about helmet to helmet contact? The answer is nothing is wrong with it.

I think the biggest burden is on the coaches. Coaches have to STOP teaching the players to lower their heads, and use the helmet. I'm still seeing WAY too many times in the NFL where players are initiating contact with their helmets. This is why I tend to be skeptical when the NFL talks about 'getting tougher' on helmet calls. Its still happening, because coaches are still coaching it.

I also think that the Targeting call should be a 2-flag call. The first flag should be for unnecessary roughness, and then the targeting call should be secondary. For instance, if a flag flies for a potential targeting call, the unnecessary roughness call should be enforced, no matter what the video review shows. If the hit was good enough to make you toss your flag for potential targeting, then its good enough to enforce unnecessary roughness. The enforcement should be 15 yards for the unnecessary roughness, and the enforcement for the Targeting part should be an ejection. We had a targeting call, I think it was against Wisconsin or Penn State, where they tossed the flag for targeting, and upon video review, the targeting was waved off. AND they never enforced the unnecessary roughness. They just went to the next play, as though a flag was never tossed. Again, if the zebra thought the play was 'targeting' even if video shows it was not, it HAD to be unnecessary roughness. And that should be enforced no matter what.

And finally ...

Wiz: ... illegal kick....

[iam416]

Haskins looked pretty good running the ball against Maryland. I don't understand why it took Urban so long to let him run it a few times.

Haskins actually looked better running than he's looked running in the past. I mean, like way better. He still sucks, but earlier in the season he looked so awful that it wasn't even a conceivably viable option. Against Maryland he looked like a nominally athletic dude that could maybe pull it 2-3 times a game -- like Cardale.

One has to wonder why the switch flipped.

[Jeff Buchanan]

Buchanan with the first pre-emptive WWCAW strike! Yowza! It's only Monday!

Look you can analyze the hell out of poor/suspect/bad officiating and how they relate to the final score/injuries etc. I think AA is correct...for the most part most crews I see get things pretty damn right...and when they don't there is remedy in the form or review for many of the human errors. Do we get it wrong sometimes...sure. Is in ineptness? No. Maybe there are a fraction of Division I officials who just plain shouldn't be out there...I know of two I can think of but on a crew of 8 their ineptness rears it's ugly head rarely. I have more of an issue with some of the new rules that have been incorporated in the name of "player safety" than I do the actual officiating on the field...and also an issue when the review booth gets it wrong. Rarely and I mean FUCKING RARELY does the officiating determine the outcome of a game. Ever. Of course you WWCAW folks will argue. Lol.

That being said...

fuckin' refs

In complete agreement with your first point. The refs get it right more often than not and there is a process to review human errors if and when they are made.

You do point out the problems with player safety issues as it pertains to enforcing rules prohibiting PF conduct. Too much subjectivity? If so, then lets advocate strongly to fix this issue (along with the replay issue you note) at the CFB level. I know this is going on at the NFL level because players and coaches disagree with some of the PF issues related to player safety for various reasons. Hopefully it carries over to CFB - I think it will.

I probably didn't make it clear enough that my issue is with a specific thing - controlling the game in a way that discourages PF conduct - involving a specific crew and specific games that includes the M v. IU game where two M players were seriously injured. That specific game that O'Neils crew officiated adds to the list of games where the hypothesis is that John O'Neils crew, having failed to enforce PF rules appropriately, resulted in injuries to players.

My mistake, as it frequently is, was to generalize my take onto the larger realm of officiating. I do have a burr up my ass about this but I was trying to make it clear that wasn't the issue I was posting about.

[Jeff Buchanan]

Thanks, Liney ..... please note I'm looking for input on the role of referees to control game PF conduct by calling all of it, not just targeting, as rigorously as possible. The intent of that is to reduce player injuries.

[Rocky Bleier]

OSU 31 UM 20

Michigan's defense has gotten exposed badly the past two weeks. Very reminiscent of previous Novembers where we went into the month thinking that we could stop people and we found out we couldn't (e.g. 2004, 2006, 2015). Offense and playcaling in the red zone continue to be hot garbage. and we have not beaten a really good team on the road literally for 11 years (MSU this year sucks). Meanwhile, OSU has solved their problems on offense since the Purdue game although that defense is still a turd. But Michigan can't do the things that Nebraska and Maryland did to exploit it. Haskins looked pretty good running the ball against Maryland. I don't understand why it took Urban so long to let him run it a few times. His throwing is incredible too -- he was dropping dimes into receivers' hands constantly all day.

Yep. Osu will get the lead early, and, even as bad as their defense has been, they'll be scoring touchdowns while Harbaugh unleashes his new weapon, Moody. I was leaning toward victory for Michigan two weeks ago, but after what I've seen from Kinnel, Metellus, Watson, and Hill as they try to stay with fast RBs and WRs, I can't see that happening. Michigan will have at least 2 PI calls, and osu might get one offensive line holding call when the game is out of reach. WM Wolverine will be complaining the whole game about all the holding going uncalled, and Talent will say stop your whining.

And the 2016 game was the most lopsided, corrupt officiating I have ever seen in my life. It was not only the 4th down spot either. Michigan did blow the game. They could not hold the lead, and Spaight made some horrible throws. But the Ohio officials did all they could to help.

[maxreturn]

Blitzapallozza ....... if I recall correctly, in 2016, Brown deployed an unprecedented number of blitzes v. osu in his first year defending them. barrett ran for 125 yards while curtis samuel and mike weber added another 80. The defense delivered 8 sacks but this didn't help M to put distance between themselves and osu after gaining a 10-7 half time lead. While the controversial ball placement on a 4th and one was perceived as the reason osu won, the real reason was M's inability to score 2nd half points and avoid that circumstance in the first place.

Both IU and, to a lesser degree Rutgers, got some big plays against Blitzapalloza. Both QBs are not dual threat types although Ramsey is a McSorely type runner. That strategy has inherent risks. I also think that against an osu offense QB'ed by dwayne haskins, it's a risk worth taking. How can ufm mitigate the impact of the Don Brown specials on haskins? I disagree with talent ....... Play back-up QB tate martell.

Brown had no answer for haskins when he came in to relieve an injured jt barrett. M was so invested in their game plan intended to thwart a running QB who was a below average passer, that when haskins came in he feasted on single, man coverage with no Ss over ...... the Ss had been deployed up on the LOS to contain barrett and were unprepared to go into a 2 hi scheme required to make haskin's reads a bit more challenging.

In any event, Harbaugh needs to make sure Brown is prepared for a running QB and as far as I can tell, martell's very good at it. What has osu got to lose? M needs to not shit the bed again like they did when haskins came in. Beware the risks of blitzapalooza on mobile QBs.

I agree that inserting Martell from time to time would be a good idea but only because it appears the kid is a decent passer too.

[WM Wolverine]

Without Chase the buckeyes might not need to hold.

[lineygoblue]

Thanks, Liney ..... please note I'm looking for input on the role of referees to control game PF conduct by calling all of it, not just targeting, as rigorously as possible. The intent of that is to reduce player injuries.

Ok, got it. Let me comment on that then.

In the clinics I've been to, they told us to call the PF stuff early and often, to let both the players and coaches know we're looking, and we're flagging. When we worked semi-pro games, you'd think some of the white hats were declaring war on the players, in the pre-game meeting. They flat-out told them "you can talk all you want but you better be walking away while you're doing it, because if you square up and throw punches, you're gone" .. Zero tolerance for anything that might lead to a fight. We toned it down for HS ball, but the message was the same, especially if we knew that it was a rivalry game, or if the two teams had a history from past seasons.

On the Winovich foul, I was wondering where was the LJ/HL (Wiz,- they do switch at halftime, right?) was on that play. The action went the opposite way, but he has back-side coverage on that. He should have picked up the foul on the Indiana lineman who nearly broke Winovich's collarbone. They caught him on a follow-up play a bit later, but I think that may have happened because they snuck a peek at the video board and saw the one they missed, and decided to watch him closer.

I do have to say that I've seen some improvement in the NCAA where you have the FJ, SJ and BJ coming in on deep plays, and helping to clean up on the sidelines after the play. A lot of PF stuff was going on when the play went into the sidelines, and that, I have to admit, seems to be getting a bit better. But that does not relieve the rest of the crew from watching the back side of deep plays. Your wing officials have to get downfield to get the spot, but somebody (R or C?) has to start keeping an eye on the stuff that's going on behind the play. That cannot be ignored, and that's what happened in the Winovich situation. I hope somebody on O'Neill's crew got nailed for that.

As a fan, I prefer seeing the early and often approach to flagging PF's because that will hopefully eliminate the crap at the end when the game is on the line. You really don't want a PF to end up deciding the game. And I have no problem with a tightly called game, when it comes to PF's or UC's. Just make sure its color blind.

[maxreturn]

My prediction....31-27 UM for two reasons: 1) OSU's run defense ranks 52nd and it has been trending down. 2) Patterson clearly adds an extra dimension to the running game; and when checking his passing stats, I was a bit surprised to see that he ranks 17th nationally in passing efficiency. He has completed 66% of his passes, thrown for 18 TD's and only 4 interceptions.

[Rocky Bleier]

If this is Urban final season, could it have been agreed upon as part of the Zach Smith fiasco and health used as the official reason? Like deja vu all over
again...

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2018/11/18/18100356/urban-meyer-maryland-health-retirement