Miscellaneous And Off Topic Subjects

[Jeff Buchanan]

I have raised two successful practitioners in the medical arts - a Nurse Practitioner and an Occupational Therapist, both with advanced degrees - a Dentist who graduated from Michigan and a PHD Biomedical Engineer who graduated from VaTech.

I have no earthly idea how that happened. The one thing I do know is that their mother and I told them figuratively, this is the box you live in. You step outside the box, there will be consequences and when they did, there were. They will tell you stories.

I think everyone needs to learn to live within a set of established boundaries and, for a lot of different reasons, there's not enough of that coming from Mothers who gave birth or from Fathers too often absent.

Until the frontal lobe is imbued with the capacity to distinguish right from wrong in the most complex real world scenarios, a figurative box, most importantly with appropriate consequences should the boundaries be crossed, works well. I think it worked well for my kids. I'm very proud of them as you can tell.

Moreover, all of them, throughout there early lives, were surrounded by role models outside of Mom and Dad who were teachers, coaches, clergymen, grandparents, uncles and aunts ..... oh my, a strong community and family unit ........ that encouraged them and when necessary, kept them in line.

There is not nearly enough of that among disadvantaged young people and for those that make it to university where critical thinking skills should flourish, too many teachers and administrators occupying important teaching and administrative positions beyond the 12th grade are egregiously self centered as you point out.

[Da Geezer]

Jeff: You just said exactly what I was thinking. I had to raise my daughter by myself, but I had learned from my parents that bright boundaries make kids feel safe and loved. And I had a supportive small town when I grew up, and later as I raised my daughter.

OK gotta have a Geezer story:

When I was in second grade, we were in a one story newish building with a flat roof. The janitors were putting a Christmas Tree up on the roof, and we second grade boys decided to throw snowballs at them. They had the high ground and returned fire. After a few minutes, our teacher, Mrs. Bass, came out and gave us a good talking to about not bothering the janitors. Yes Ma'am. After she went inside we resumed fire.

Well, when we got back into the classroom, Mrs Bass lined all of us boys up and paddled our asses. She had a paddle with little air holes cut drilled in it to cut down on drag. As she went down the line my basic thought was "don't cry".

Nothing special about any of this. But in this small town, Shelby, all the parents knew each other, and all the boys knew that if you got it at school, then you would git it at home too. But the girls never mentioned it at their homes. 30 second graders said nothing to their parents about the incident. When I was about 40, one of my friends' mother came up to me shaking her finger because she had just found out about the incident, and she was making fun of us getting off easy.

30 seven year olds. No one tells. All knew what the rules were. I really believe I was blessed.

And my daughter was raised in basically the same environment. She now teaches special needs kindergarten in an inner city school, and I'm proud of her. But both she and I know the value of community and of parents and of boundaries that mean safety. Her kids (students, but she calls the "my kids") just don't have that. I do believe one contributing factor was parents no longer backing up the teachers and causing confusion in the kids.

[UMStan White]

"It seems that being responsible can insure rights, but excerizing rights doesn't guarentee responsibilty."

That pretty much sums it up.

Geezer you make a point that my friends and I frequently mention. I too grew up in a small town and within a very tight neighborhood, Each one of us knew that anybody's parents could discipline us if we got out of line. We never questioned that right. It does take a village to grow a child,

[Prime2]

Currently discovering the splendor of the Gal?pagos Islands , 600 miles off coastal Ecuador, magnificent.

Up thread Geezer you mentioned you were with the FBI? Not in custody but as a badge & gun touting G-Man?

[iam416]

I think it's really as simple as "power." There is nothing missing in their development or the way they think or anything like that. We, as a society, have gradually moved from to a point where personal grievances are now settled by appeal to the masses. Think about it -- we're at a point where someone's personal offense -- reasonable or not -- is currency -- is power.

The students did this at Mizzou because THEY CAN. No one will take them to task. And, quite the contrary, the people that matter will stumble over themselves to applaud their noble cause. All allegations are assumed to be 100% true. All complaints are assumed to be 100% justified.

College campuses have created this environment and now they're getting eaten by the monster they created. The natural market reaction would be for some Universities to basically shit on "microaggressions" and "safe spaces" -- but, I'm not sure the makeup of Academia allows for that. So, academia will press on knowing their jobs exist at the whim of someone's personal offense.

[iam416]

Nothing special about any of this. But in this small town, Shelby, all the parents knew each other, and all the boys knew that if you got it at school, then you would git it at home too. But the girls never mentioned it at their homes. 30 second graders said nothing to their parents about the incident. When I was about 40, one of my friends' mother came up to me shaking her finger because she had just found out about the incident, and she was making fun of us getting off easy.

This is exactly right. It's about community. Hillary catches a ton of shit for her "it takes a village" -- but man, growing up in a community matters. It's about living up to standards and not wanting to disappoint or fail people you know and care about. Reputation matters. I'm not a religious guy in the least, but I appreciate the value a church (denomination irrelevant) plays in this regard.

That said, you can have a community with woeful standards. I think the death spiral of communities in the "White Ghetto" are great examples of this.

[hack]

Agreed. It would be nice if my kids heard the same message from people in public as they did from me in certain situations. If your kid's doing something annoying at the mall and you ask him to stop, or he won't share the swing with some other kid at the playground, nine times out of ten the adult they are impacting or the parent of that kid who wants a turn on the swing will say ``oh no, it's ok''. Non-confrontational. Keeps things pleasant between adults, but it sure does undermine the things you try to tell your kid about how to behave in public.

All sorts of problems.

[entropy]

Quick story before I board the plane...

At the NW game in Lincoln we met some players parents at out tailgate... Over 30 of them in fact. As they formed a semi-circle around us talking about their trip and their kids one parent bluntly asked me: how do you get 90k people to all act this nicely? I asked her what she meant... She said no kids, no adults.. Nobody was rude, hurtled insults or made them feel in welcome. I told her that for Nebraska fans it is a point of pride and the collective fanbase takes it upon themselves to reign in anyone who steps out of line. Another mom said it must be the way people are raised in Nebraska because she doesn't see that in other places. I told her I see great fans everywhere I go.. It's just those stepping out of line are not told to behave differently. They are scared to be adults.


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[entropy]

Hack... And sadly, one out of ten kids have parents who are encouraging the behavior, bending the rules or just acting like little Johnny should get what he wants... I was at a pumpkin farm where they had peddle car rides. $1 to ride around the track. We saw a mom from Kansas tell her kid in front of other kids and parents in line to keep going until they tell you to get off. The girl taking tickets was 13 or 14. No way she was going to speak up. My wife and I both said something about being fair and the mom turned her back to us and her friend or sister gave us dirty looks. Fortunately, some other parents started to chime in and they left talking about the hostility of people from Missouri and how we are a bunch of rednecks.


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[iam416]

Good example about the fanbase, Entropy. That's exactly right. I do my part to call out dickheads these days (when I was 25 I wouldn't have).

The larger point is spot on.

I'm not sure how the community point works with Mizzou. I think it probably partially explains it insofar as the the University is a community and does have certain acceptable standards that are readily exploited by students. It is contra Mizzou insofar as community standards are about self-policing; about not appealing to authorities and certainly not to the public at large.

[hack]

Yeah. Or you get that parent using some new unconventional method. Nobody wants to scold the kid who happens to have parents who are gonna force a lecture on you about their new space-age techniques. Many different ways to do it now. Bottom line for me: don't blame the kids! It's the adults.

[Ghengis Jon]

...lined all of us boys up and paddled our asses. She had a paddle with little air holes cut drilled in it to cut down on drag...

Boy, I remember being on the receiving end of that a few times! Nowadays, however, that's a path to riches by suing for battery, mental trauma, public humiliation, etc etc etc. Plus it's a built in excuse for 'mitigating circumstances' if convicted of violent felonies later in life.

What a country we've become.

[drok]

I think what you are seeing at Missouri is the self-policing that a community should be doing. And frankly, it's the kids who are having to enact the disciplinary actions that the adults seem incapable of doing.

[entropy]

Miscellaneous And Off Topic Subjects

Regarding Missouri... Part of the problem is white people struggle talking about race... We really do. We are uncomfortable and collectively view a race discussion as if we are accused of being racist.

Combine that with recent feelings by young educated black students for black only solutions and less white student involvement... (Will be interesting if this stays localized or goes national) And I think we have some pretty high hurdles ahead of us. If communication is the catalyst to change, real progress could end up slowing down.


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[hack]

I think what you are seeing at Missouri is the self-policing that a community should be doing. And frankly, it's the kids who are having to enact the disciplinary actions that the adults seem incapable of doing.

An adjunct asking kids to physically intimidate a student-newspaper photographer -- violating his rights, basic laws, and all human decency all in the service of exercising her own. AND that's a communications/media adjucnct. You'd think maybe if you're teaching kids about something you'd know the basics.