UM Football Recruiting - by WM Wolverine

[lineygoblue]

The biggest problem with Michigan football is Warde Manuel believes Jim Harbaugh is running the program just fine.

Something that Charles Woodson has said in the past was how the mindset was on the 1997 team that won the NC. They were angry because the year before, they lost 4 games. That motivated them to do better the entire 1997 season. Four losses was totally unacceptable, and it made them angry.

Today, 4-5 losses are the acceptable standard on State Street.

Recruiting will not change as long as that is the acceptable standard. Michigan will continue to attract and sign players that get the program to that level.

Championship caliber players will continue to go elsewhere.

[THE_WIZARD_]

Liney:

hi

[hack]

The biggest problem with Michigan football is Warde Manuel believes Jim Harbaugh is running the program just fine.

Something that Charles Woodson has said in the past was how the mindset was on the 1997 team that won the NC. They were angry because the year before, they lost 4 games. That motivated them to do better the entire 1997 season. Four losses was totally unacceptable, and it made them angry.

Today, 4-5 losses are the acceptable standard on State Street.

Recruiting will not change as long as that is the acceptable standard. Michigan will continue to attract and sign players that get the program to that level.

Championship caliber players will continue to go elsewhere.

None of us really know what Warde thinks. I probably tend to agree with you, or, at least anticipate that Warde would want to be really damn sure if he were to fire a program legend, but we don't really know. I personally tend to think that the acceptable standard is a lot higher in some areas than you think it is, but also that the school isn't going to do what it takes to meet that standard. I also just have a very hard time letting go of the idea that Harbaugh is so different than he used to be and that it translates into NEVER being able to take a rivalry game off OSU. Sparty's beaten us despite a huge talent gap, and we've beaten OSU in the past depite a huge talent gap. There's something to be said for the measurables, but, as they say about the intangible/unpredictables, ``that's why they play the game". Something is off, and doesn't have to stay that way, maybe.

[Hannibal]

OSU has all of the intangibles in their favor too. They clearly want it more. Their culture would never tolerate the type of complacency and rot that has permeated the program and continued unabated under Harbaugh. The rivalry is basically Notre Dame vs. a military academy now.

[Hannibal]

Markus Allen commits to Michigan.

Our string of dominance over Ball State and Boston College continues!

[hack]

OSU has all of the intangibles in their favor too. They clearly want it more. Their culture would never tolerate the type of complacency and rot that has permeated the program and continued unabated under Harbaugh. The rivalry is basically Notre Dame vs. a military academy now.

It is astonishing that year in/year out, they genuinely DO want it more. That's a big part of the rot, and it's what bothers key alumni like Woodson so much. A guy like that could be the real catalyst, if he forms a faction and creates a voice.

[lineygoblue]

Liney:

hi

Hello Wiz

I hope you're able to get your bar open and running again soon.

[WM Wolverine]

What Ohio State is doing in recruiting is phenomenal, this is more a Ohio State being special than Michigan doing something wrong...

Some of those Ohio kids Hoke was able to sign, Buckeyes have worked to close that off plus recruit nationally better than everyone else, much better.

[THE_WIZARD_]

Hello Wiz

I hope you're able to get your bar open and running again soon.

Thanks Liney. Reopening May 11 with restrictions.

[iam416]

it's what bothers key alumni like Woodson so much.

Woodson and certainly Marcus Ray took those games personal.

I generally don't subscribe to the notion that someone "can't beat" another team for mystical reasons. I usually go with Occam's Razor and look at talent. I could make a pretty good case that Cooper's teams, despite starting 0-5-1, probably were right around expectation. What I can't do, though, is explain 1995 and 1996. I could explain 1 as an outlier. But not both.

Tressel's success against Carr is also probably more along the lines of "can't just explain with talent."

I think the last 8 have been down to talent with the exception of 2016 where the teams were dead even. HARBAUGH!!!'s biggest knock, IMO, isn't necessarily losing, but the losing so big. 3 total blowouts. Ohio State is better than M, but not like that. I mean, look at what those OSU teams did against Penn State. There's no reason for M to get obliterated by 29, 23, 29 in any of those respective years. That I can't explain with just talent.

[hack]

What Ohio State is doing in recruiting is phenomenal, this is more a Ohio State being special than Michigan doing something wrong...

Some of those Ohio kids Hoke was able to sign, Buckeyes have worked to close that off plus recruit nationally better than everyone else, much better.

Sure. But not the only factor. Michigan's team doesn't play as hard or want it nearly as bad. OSU's team doesn't quit.

[lineygoblue]

Sure. But not the only factor. Michigan's team doesn't play as hard or want it nearly as bad. OSU's team doesn't quit.

OSU still treats the game as their most important game of the year. The rest of the season for them is akin to the NFL pre-season. Lloyd Carr used to beat OSU by being better prepared to play the game. Cooper focused on the "We hate Michigan" mantra, and it was not enough. Tressel knew that, and decided to prepare better than Carr. Carr had no response, once he got out-prepared. No Michigan coach since then has had their team properly prepared to play the game except for a couple anomalous years where OSU decided to play crappy, and lost due to boredom.

Nobody on State Street is upset with the losses anymore. Its expected, and accepted. It will not change until it becomes unacceptable as a total organization, from the president of the university down to the lowliest water boy. This is the way its going to be for a long time.

[Hannibal]

Even when Ohio State lolligags through three quarters because of boredom (e.g. 2009, 2017), they always pull away at the end. Our one victory in the past 17 years came when we barely eked out a win against the worst OSU team of the century.

[lineygoblue]

Yep. Even if Michigan was to keep it close, they know that Harbaugh or some player will do something stupid, and hand them another win.

It must be nice to enter the game as a team, and know that there is no freaking way you can lose. They can make mistakes, .. have a bad coaching day, .. even show up late for kickoff, .. and yet somehow, .. some way, Michigan will hand you a win.

Even Woody would be upset with how Michigan plays nowadays.

[Hannibal]

This is how Minnesota and Indiana must feel playing against us. You are gong to either get the shit kicked out of you or you are going to choke it away in the last two minutes. You just have to pray that your opponent makes a colossal hiring mistake and in Indiana's case, that didn't even work out in their favor.

Indiana hasn't beaten us in 24 tries. If Harbaugh is here for good then our streak will reach that level. I used to think that he might get one win by 2021 but he's never going to win in the rivalry. Period. He might win one more bowl game in the next decade if he's lucky.